Ms. Anta Guisse is one of three defence lawyers representing Khieu Samphan. We spoke to her about her role as his lawyer, what motivated her to come to Cambodia, and on her perspectives on the ECCC.
How did you become Khieu Samphan’s lawyer?
Well, I have been working in international cases for quite a while now. I started at the ICTR (International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda), where I was a legal consultant, and then co-counsel, for one of the Accused. I was working with Mr. Arthur Vercken [Joint International Co-Lawyer for Khieu Samphan], and was offered the opportunity to share again, with him, at this trial. I started in international criminal law wanting to work on African problematics, but this was a great experience, and an interesting case. In the balance, was also the opportunity to rotate with another lawyer, so we could both keep our practice in France.
How did you become a lawyer?
I wanted to be a lawyer for a long time; since high school. I like to convince people, and, in that way, it suits my character well. I like the trial process, and I believe it’s a good thing to be able to doubt; to not have certainties, and, to be able to be open-minded and look at things from a different angle, which I believe is the role of a defence lawyer.
Especially in this case, where everybody already has an idea of who is guilty, and what the history is. My main challenge, as a defence lawyer, is to remind people that this is a criminal case, and we’re dealing with individuals, who may, or may not have been involved. That’s a big challenge, in this kind of trial, where the victims are so numerous, and there’s an assumed feeling of guilt, from the public and international community.
What is Khieu Samphan’s position?
Khieu Samphan was branded “Head of the State”. Within this position, he had in reality very little power. He was not on the Standing Committee and he has always denied to have participated in any political plan, involving the commission of genocide. Khieu Samphan joined the Khmer Rouge, as a nationalist, in a period of post-colonialism and the Cold war, and as someone, who was unhappy with the situation for Cambodians, before 1975.
Our problem is that we’re dealing mainly with “joint criminal enterprise” which is a complex legal concept where the charges are that my client was part of a group that was responsible for policies which resulted in crimes among which were crimes of genocide. Khieu Samphan is pleading not guilty on all charges. In that context, as a Defence team, we have, on the one hand, to debate, and if necessary, challenge the factual allegations, and, on the other hand, to discuss his so-called responsibility, when it comes to policies and the implementation of policies, as defined by the Closing order, and the Prosecution.
Do you often get portrayed as the baddy?
Yes, I think often people see the Defence lawyers, in these kind of cases, as the necessary evil. They understand that there needs to be a trial, but they assume that my client is guilty. So, we’re seen as representing principles of law that they agree with, but representing someone, who is allegedly responsible for genocide, which they think is wrong. For a lot of people, presumption of innocence is a difficult concept to grasp, and apply, when it comes to these kinds of cases.
Do you see yourself as human rights lawyer?
I’m a criminal lawyer. I do human rights, but I have other commitments in other fields. I like to do things with women; promoting democracy, so in that capacity I’m a human rights lawyer. My main motivation is to do my job as a lawyer, and one would hope that that equates with promoting human rights, especially at a UN court. It should be one and the same. As a lawyer, I’m wearing many hats, but in the court room, I’m primarily a criminal lawyer.
How do you find it as a black woman in the courts, and in Cambodia?
International Criminal Law is still a very male world, and every woman has to face difficulties of being taken seriously. You have to prove yourself more. To prove that you did not steal your position. As a black woman, coming from France, I already know about prejudice. Sometimes it’s very subtle. Without wanting to prove anything to anyone, I just want to do my job properly. In Cambodia, people look at you, because they’re not used to see many Africans, or people from African descent. Sometimes curiosity is nice, sometimes it’s not so nice. I’ve never seen any bad reactions to me in the court room. Everyone is respectful. Maybe this is decorum, but maybe it’s a good thing, for Cambodian people to know that people from all over the world are interested in Cambodia, and can be a part of it. Rather than as a black lawyer, I think, in this kind of world, it’s even harder to be a woman. I see many female interns here, but not the same amount in positions of power. But I guess, and I hope, it means that the women, who are not so visible today, will be in the front, in a very near future.
Emma Loffler
Public Affairs Intern
Khmer Rouge Tribunal