MAM Nai
Pseudonym: KW-08
Cases: Case 001
Category: Witness
Background and role
Mam Nai alias Chan was one of the S-21 security centre interrogators of the less important Cambodian prisoners,
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and the only interrogator of Vietnamese prisoners.
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Chan and Kaing Guaek Eav alias Duch knew each other from university.
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They were detained in the same cell during the Lon Nol regime,
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and worked together at the M-13 (Amleang) security centre before being transferred to the S-21.
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Chan testified in Case 001 on the functioning and crimes committed at the S-21.
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His testimony in Case 001 was also relied upon by the Trial Chamber in Case 002/02 concerning the interrogation of the Vietnamese prisoners at S-21.
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M-13 security centre
While at M-13, Chan planted potatoes, learned how to interrogate prisoners by observing Duch,
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and interrogated 10 prisoners.
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There were only Cambodian prisoners at M-13,
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who were kept in case of American bombardment.
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The prisoners were shackled and wore only shorts.
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Those who attempted to escape were shot near the stream in the forest.
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Chan witnessed two prisoners, Sok and Heng, being released from M-13.
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Organisation of the S-21 security centre and Duch’s role
Chan arrived at the S-21 security centre together with Duch and his family.
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Chan’s wife was in charge of cooking for the staff.
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At that time, S-21 was led by Nat, who was replaced by Duch.
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Political trainings were held on a monthly basis at a Christian Church outside of the prison compound.
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The staff was taught the leadership’s view on the current situation, the party’s stance, the socialist revolution, and the need to be transparent, respectful and abiding to the upper echelon.
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Chan compiled a notebook containing Nat’s and Duch’s lectures,
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which also contained instructions on how to torture prisoners.
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Chan testified that he was not instructed to torture prisoners while interrogating them.
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The self-criticism meetings were held at various locations, mostly at Duch’s house,
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and were chaired by Duch’s superior, Son Sen.
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The S-21 staff reflected on their mistakes and had to self-criticize and criticize others.
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At least four or five people attended each session.
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There were several interrogators,
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including a female interrogation team led by the wife of the Deputy Chairman Hor.
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There were no meetings amongst the interrogators to discuss interrogation techniques.
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Chan did not know how many interrogators were at S-21;
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Duch prevented contact between them.
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Staff members did not dare speak to each other and were not allowed to wander around.
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When staff members disappeared, Chan suspected that they had been arrested. He never asked Duch fearing that he would be implicated.
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His wife and children lived with him at M-13 and later at the S-21, but they never talked about work matters.
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Chan acknowledged that there was insufficient food at S-21.
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The Trial Chamber found that Duch’s teachings were reflected in the notebooks of the S-21 interrogators,
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and that the S-21 staff had to participate in self-criticism meetings.
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The Trial Chamber also found that Chan’s notebook corroborated Duch’s testimony that Vietnamese prisoners were tortured “on a ‘very minimal scale’”.
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Interrogation at S-21
Chan received instructions on how to interrogate Cambodian prisoners from Deputy Chairman Hor, while Duch instructed him how to interrogate Vietnamese prisoners.
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The interrogations took place in a house 200-300m outside of the compound.
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He could not hear any noise coming from the prison from that location.
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Chan received prisoners for interrogation without any documents.
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Prisoners were shackled on both feet, their hands were cuffed in the back, their pants were untied, and they were blindfolded.
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They would remove the handcuffs and the blindfold during the interrogation. The guards would be waiting outside the interrogation room while he interrogated the prisoners alone,
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without supervision.
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He never received any guidelines from Duch on the time limit of each session.
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Chan wrote the prisoners’ confessions.
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Those who would not confess were subjected to the chewing technique of repeating the same questions during interrogation.
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Such prisoners would be taken back to their cells for 2-3 days for further ‘reflection’.
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If the prisoner would still not confess, Chan would report to Duch.
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When a report stated that the prisoner was to be “released”, it meant that the prisoner would be executed, a practice adopted by Nat to conceal arbitrary killings from the upper echelon.
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Chan interrogated mostly combatants or the low-ranking cadres and only occasionally district governors or a secretary.
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He interrogated Phung Ton, the Secretary of State of the Ministry of Education, and Chao Seng , the GRUNK official
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(whose confessions Chan believed to be genuine).
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Other important prisoners were interrogated by Pon, about 500m from where Chan conducted his interrogations.
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Chan interrogated the United Front for the Liberation of the Oppressed Races (FULRO) group and the Jarai group (a minority ethnic group living in Vietnam and Cambodia), who were later released.
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He invoked the right to remain silent when asked whether he interrogated European prisoners and spies, and what instruments of torture were the choice of the interrogators.
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Although he spoke some Vietnamese, he was assisted by Chan in interrogating Vietnamese prisoners.
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Sometimes Hor or Meng would join him.
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Chan interrogated up to 50 Vietnamese soldiers and civilians.
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He still strongly believed they were the invaders of the Cambodian territory, guilty of grabbing or attempting to grab Cambodian territory.
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Vietnamese prisoners were interrogated differently from Cambodian prisoners and were sparingly tortured.
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Asked about their functions and where they fought,
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their confessions were broadcasted on the radio.
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Chan expressed regret for the death of the good and less good people who died – including his own family members
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and the family of Professor Phung Ton
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– but not for the ‘bad’ people who died at the S-21 security centre.
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In finding that interrogators would send reports and confessions to Duch,
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the Trial Chamber in Case 001 relied on Chan’s testimony in finding that the Vietnamese prisoners at S-21 were forced to make confessions which were then broadcasted on DK radio,
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that the Vietnamese prisoners were tortured more sparingly than the Cambodian prisoners,
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and that they were sometimes interrogated with the help of an interpreter,
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and in clarifying that prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, when the guards handed them over to the interrogators.
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In Case 002/02, the Trial Chamber relied on Chan’s testimony in finding that the Vietnamese prisoners and the FULRO and Jarai group members were interrogated.
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